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Mike Winkeljohn: “I don’t think Anderson would probably want that fight with Jon Jones”
By Zach Arnold | September 27, 2011
Kazushi Sakuraba and Jon Jones. One fighter is a legend who Frank Shamrock thinks will die in the ring. The other is hyped as the ‘future’ of MMA (he’s the ‘present’) who will be an insanely favored fighter in all upcoming bouts. If he can beat Rashad Evans and dispatch of someone the caliber of Dan Henderson, you almost don’t want to say it… but he could be a new generation Fedor only with a much stellar résumé at the rate he is going.
Sakuraba lost to Yan Cabral this past weekend at Saitama Super Arena under the DREAM banner. The fight result was minimally covered in the Japanese papers, largely out of respect to the poor guy and the fact that DREAM’s support in the mass media has tanked. It’s almost as if the fight didn’t exist in the mind of many fans in hopes of turning a blind eye to the current train wreck. Jones, meanwhile, cemented his status as a true ‘ace’ in the UFC while dethroning a big name from PRIDE’s past. Rampage had made his name in Japan by fighting Sakuraba and there was some cruel irony in seeing both men go down the way they did this past weekend. At least Rampage is in better physical shape than Sakuraba.
So, when I listened to Mauro Ranallo and Brett Okamoto talk about how Sakuraba has been allowed to hang around the business still, it was depressing:
BRETT OKAMOTO: “(In sports like baseball and football) There are better guys coming up, younger guys coming up that force you out of the sport. In this sport, that doesn’t really happen. You can stay around as long as somebody’s willing to try to make money off of you. Unfortunately, that’s what’s happening with Sakuraba. I think we’re all in agreement that he shouldn’t be fighting any more and it is just a drawback of this sport because it’s not something you really necessarily see in other sports.”
MAURO RANALLO: “No, and I don’t think you should necessarily see it in MMA and I guess this is speaking to the larger picture that if you are still forced to roll out Kazushi Sakuraba in high-profile fights or trying to milk any more out of a cow that has been milked dry for many years now, then I think that’s a larger indictment to the organization (DREAM) and fact, a culture, an MMA culture that I’m so firmly entrenched in and I’ll always remember with great reverence the 31 trips to Japan for PRIDE. But now, a short few years later in 2011, the entire industry there is on life support and I think it’s just a matter of time before, you know, either the plug is pulled or they rebuild and try to find, you know, the next stars. Because in Japan and I think the UFC will discover this as well even though the UFC’s a dominant MMA brand globally and all you have to do is put in the UFC and in certain places to get the draw, we’re learning in North America that you need to cultivate the stars, put together the fights the fans want to see. But in Japan in February (Saitama Super Arena)… Yoshihiro Akiyama, three losses in a row. He’s being moved down to Welterweight. We got Rampage Jackson coming off a loss but wanting to fight fellow PRIDE alum Mauricio Shogun. Takanori Gomi losing again, in big fashion, on Saturday. But where are they going to get the nationalistic draws? One thing we know about the Japanese culture is that they are just that, very nationalistic. They want to support their own and I just don’t think it’s going to be, you know, smooth sailing for the UFC in Japan and I think for the Japanese it’s going to be a long time before the glory days are restored, if they ever are again…”
**
One of the premises that fans always want to see with their favorite fighters in MMA is hope. Hope that they win. Hope that they can still stay competitive. There are lots of fans who are true diehards for fighters who are past their prime and then someone like Dana White comes along and makes a decision on behalf of the fighter when he can’t make any more money off of them.
In the case of Jon Jones, you no longer have to use the word ‘hope’ or ‘potential.’ He’s accomplished. He’s establishing a path and a track record as a champion. How long that reign lasts is anyone’s guess but the safe money is to say ‘long’ over ‘short.’
I was listening to Mauro’s interview with Jon’s striking coach, Mike Winkeljohn, and Mike is a unique interview to say the least. He’s informative, honest, and brings a point of view. Given how awkward Jon Jones can be in the media (similar to Satoshi Ishii), it’s hard to measure what he is really like as a person. Here’s how Mike describes Jon Jones as a personality:
“Jon is, he is that humble guy, he does help the other guys in camp. People don’t see that. I can’t believe some of the press he gets and people think he’s arrogant. He’s just confident. He’s a kid that I’ll say, “Jon, I want you to front kick him this way” or “Jon, I want you to throw this kick or that kick” or we’ll show him a move where to go on the ground or whatever and he goes out and tries it out right away in sparring and he believes it and he makes it work, he believes in himself and that’s as high of a quality as a fighter goes, he’s a believer and he’s not nervous about it in a sense that he doesn’t second-guess himself. He just goes for it and so I think it’s played out a little bit. Of course, he’s an anomaly with his length and what he can do out there in the cage and he’s got such a good wrestling base that’s made for MMA. People try getting underneath him and he’s going to just toss them for it with his length and bring them over the top. But he learns real fast, he’s a great student of the game, he studies constantly, we watch a lot of tape together and we put our heads together and he performs.”
In past interviews featuring Greg Jackson, he will often talk about structuring a game plan for a fighter and allowing a certain amount of creative room for a fighter to navigate… but not too much. Which is why I thought this interview exchange was somewhat enlightening:
MAURO RANALLO: “Do you give him freedom to become creative and adlib inside the Octagon? How much did we see of that on Saturday (against Rampage), if so?”
MIKE WINKELJOHN: “Oh, quite a bit, you know what, we let him ad-lib within certain parameters. The game plan was definitely break Quinton down, let’s break his legs down, let’s break his body down, let’s slow him down and stay away from his big bombs and then anything you want to do, Jon, you’re going to be capable. You’ll be able to shoot in and take him down after you’ve broken him down and it played out that way, so I’m real happy with what he did. We made some mistakes and Jon hurt his foot with an inside leg kick. Jon doesn’t that experience, yet, from fighting. If you think about his time standing up in the cage, we’re talking a few rounds, a few minutes where he’s actually doing stand-up. He doesn’t have that kind of experience. Some of these guys have had many fights, numerous fights in kickboxing. Jon just comes from a wrestling background so all this is new, so he’s still trying to figure out all the striking out and doing really well with it.”
MAURO RANALLO: “How would you rate his fighter IQ?”
MIKE WINKELJOHN: “He’s as smart as anybody I’ve ever worked with the cage. He listens and he understands and he sees things a couple of steps ahead. I’m sure he’d be a good chess player if he decided to.”
MAURO RANALLO: “There is precision and technique, the spinning elbows, the kicks to the patella tendon. Do you see any similarities between him and Anderson Silva or does that come up at all when going through game plans with him or how do you see him as a fighter compared to others that you’ve worked with?”
MIKE WINKELJOHN: “You know what, I think with Anderson, Anderson is probably the best as far as the eyes going, watching an opponent and then knowing he can strike a certain time and put them on their ass. That’s what Anderson does and I think Jon’s getting there with his strikes. I think Jon’s much better, way past Anderson as far as wrestling skills go. With his stand-up I think Jon brings many more strikes to the table than Anderson has, a lot more variety. We’re just not there on a knockout type of shot, we’re going to get there pretty soon. We hurt Rampage many times during that fight with strikes, but we’re going to get there. We’re going to get those things fine-tuned. It’s just going to take just a little bit longer and we’ve only just begun. The future is definitely bright for Jon.”
MAURO RANALLO: “What do you think about his learning curve right now? Where do you think he is?”
MIKE WINKELJOHN: “Oh, I think he’s there. You know what, down the road there’s no doubt he’s going to get some weight on and go to Heavyweight but he’s got a lot to do at Light Heavyweight. I don’t think Anderson would probably want that fight with Jon Jones. I think, you know, Anderson would use his length and pick his shot against people. With Jon coming in at so many different angles from a long range, I definitely don’t think that’s a good fight for Anderson. I think we’re here to stay in the Light Heavyweight division for a while and build a legend, something that hasn’t been done in a little bit of a while. The Light Heavyweight division has had a lot of turnover.”
With much fan speculation growing about whether Anderson Silva should face Jon Jones given that it seems a GSP/Anderson fight is unlikely to happen, Rashad Evans seems to be off to the side. Yes, he’ll be fighting Jones next but it’s an uncomfortable kind of situation. You have hardcores who think UFC is scripting and manipulating the way it’s being presented, you have fans wondering if there is a real feud at all, and then you have the casual fans who largely think Bones is going to wreck Rashad. Not just beat him, but humiliate him in that 7-to-1 kind of favorite way.
MAURO RANALLO: “What happened, from your perspective? Why did it turn out all the way it did and do you feel it’s nothing more than maybe a misunderstanding at the end? Maybe even after the fight, win or lose, do you think Jones and Evans will ever patch things up or will the antipathy will continue to grow as we near the title fight afterwards?”
MIKE WINKELJOHN: “They came to camp, I wouldn’t say that they were the greatest friends, they just trained together a little bit. It’s just one of those things. It sucks for Rashad in that he was going to fight the title, he didn’t get the chance, and Jon took it so I’m sure there’s some sour grapes there and I don’t blame him. At the end of the day, everyone wants to be champion, teammate or not. That’s what everybody wants to do. I don’t blame him in the slightest. I’d want to fight for the title, everybody does. You have two great fighters trying as hard as they can to beat the crap out of each other, find out who’s the best, and then afterwards I think the respect will come and they’ll go forward hopefully with a lot of money in their pocket and even more fans.”
Topics: DREAM, Japan, Media, MMA, UFC | 27 Comments » | Permalink | Trackback |
Jon Jones would absolutely wreck Anderson Silva.
He has a long enough reach to keep the fight at his distance. His striking is good enough not to get KO’d…. He might even win some of the striking exchanges as Silva was even getting tagged by Chael Sonnen due to the threat of the takedown….
And the takedowns…. If Sonnen can take Silva down for 5 straight rounds, Jones can certainly do it. The only difference is that he would finish him on the ground with those elbow.
Anderson Silva, or his fans, really can’t complain about GSP not fighting him…. Because he wants nothing to do with Jon Jones. There are weight classes for a reason.
I would put Jon Jones as a favorite to beat anybody in this sport right now, including anybody in the Heavyweight Division. The only guy who style wise really has a shot is Lyoto Machida. But by the time these two guys fights, Jones will have worked on defending the kicks enough that it won’t be an issue. Machida needed to have fought Jones instead of Rampage to have a chance at beating him…. Not by the end of 2012 where Winkeljohn will have enough time to correc the tiny holes in his game.
As long as Jones doesn’t become a headcase, his career is likely going to be a 3 year reign at Light Heavyweight, and then he will move on to Heavyweight and rule that division until he slows down of old age.
Yes, I believe the hype.
The difference, of course, is that Anderson has offered to move all the way down to welterweight to fight GSP. I don’t think Jones is going to be willing to go to middleweight.
And I agree, on Machida. His style, patience, and counter-striking ability make him the most intriguing matchup for Jones, at least within the next year before he ups his game to another lever. After that, I am still not willing to say he’s going to reign supreme for the next 5 to 10 years. Though, as things look, he is on his way to being the Jordan of MMA. But maybe he’ll really be be Bird and a Magic will show up to make things interesting.
That offer to move down is BS. If he really wanted to make the weight cut, he would just declare that is he going to, and the UFC would make hiom the #1 contender. But the truth is that he really doesn’t want to even try that.
And on the flip side of that….
GSP, by 2011 standards, is not a big Welterweight. He used to be back in the day, but not really anymore.
By comparison, Anderson Silva’s body fits in perfectly for Light Heavyweight. In fact, he did not look undersized in his fight with Forrest Griffin, who happens to be a very big Light Heavyweight even by today’s standards.
And with that fight, Anderson Silva beat (at the time) a Top 5 Light Heavyweight. Silva has much more business at Light Heavyweight then GSP has at Middleweight.
Either way, I don’t like fighters moving up in weight. I would rather a fighter dominate one weight class his entire career then playing the up and down weight class game. But if you are going to look at which one looks more like a chicken for not fighting up a weight class, that is really all on Anderson Silva.
“There are lots of fans who are true diehards for fighters who are past their prime and then someone like Dana White comes along and makes a decision on behalf of the fighter when he can’t make any more money off of them.”
That’s a bit unkind to Dana. Does anyone really think he couldn’t have made any more money off of Chuck?
What do you expect, Zack is a Dana hater.
You are dead right though, he could still make money off Chuck, he was trying to push Wandi and Nog out the door but they want to fight.
UFC tossed Kimbo not for safety reasons but they could have made money off him more but they let him go.
So this whole thing that Dana only cares about money is bullshit.
Dana made a decision on Chuck’s career because they are friends and Chuck is showing signs of somebody that has taken too many blows to the head. Listen to a Chuck interview of recent years and then listen to one from 7 odd years ago. Big big difference.
Dana could make money on Chuck, Chuck would still be a good draw. He suffered 4 “go to sleep” KO’s in the last couple of years of his career. Dana didn’t want that kind of money. Good for him.
Jones is a very talented kid and he’ll probably have a long reign as LHW champion but it won’t be his first run with the belt. Rashad Evans is going to put a big halt to the Bones hypetrain which has gone off the rails by beating a Rampage Jackson who’s been incredibly predictable since the Forrest fight.
Evans unlike Bones is in his prime and he’s going to make all of this era stuff sound silly just like Shogun did to Machida. It’s way too much for a guy who’s just a kid and it’s kind of funny that his big brother is the one who’s going to take him to school.
Rashad Evans isn’t beating Jones. He had one good training session with him, opposed to the multiple times Jones beat his ass.
Rashad’s only advantage is speed; he’s weaker, smaller, and doesn’t have the wrestling or striking Jones possesses.
Where are you getting this “multiple times he beat his ass”, because none of their training partners said anything of the kind, and in fact not even Jones has to my knowledge.
Rashad had an easier time taking down Rampage than Jones did, so I’m not sure why you’d assume he “doesn’t have the wrestling [that] Jones possesses.
Jones has said he “almost stopped him muliple times in training”. Winkeljohn has never said any of this sort of thing in interviews, but when he’s asked if it was true he wouldn’t deny it.
Rashad didn’t have an easier time taking Rampage down, he caught him with a punch, and grabbed a double leg in the first round. Then he was able to get him down again, when Rampage was gassed in the third. Jones got Rampage down multiple times, and caused damage everytime he was on top.
The Rampage that fought Jones was also a lot better than the one who fought Rashad. He wasn’t sucking for air halfway through the third round.
Edub, respectfully, I wouldn’t put ANY stock in what these fighters say happened in training. It is ridiculous for them to even talk about it.
I know, but I put more stock in what Jones says just because whenever it gets brought up around the trainers there is dead silence. No faces of disagreement, no faces of disdain, but more of a panicked look like “I can’t believe he brought that up”.
On top of that neither ever denied what has been said about the other. Jon says it was early in their time together that Rashad held him down, and Rashad says he was mimicking other people the “times” where Jones says he could have stopped him.
I don’t understand that the same fans that think Jones is cocky and full of himself are clamoring that he should be fighting other division champions already.
Jones is looking great and has the physical tools and mental game to make him a favorite against anyone at 205. But this isn’t middleweight, it’s a strong division with a lot of talent, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see his reign get cut short. It’s easy to go on a win streak when you’re facing guys like Cote and Lietes, less so when you’re facing Machida, Evans, Shogun, Rampage, etc.
“Jones has said he “almost stopped him muliple times in training”. Winkeljohn has never said any of this sort of thing in interviews, but when he’s asked if it was true he wouldn’t deny it.”
Hahaha, actually he said that there were multiple times when he “could have finished him” but held back “out of respect”, and if you actually take that seriously I have a bridge to sell you.
“Rashad didn’t have an easier time taking Rampage down, he caught him with a punch, and grabbed a double leg in the first round. Then he was able to get him down again, when Rampage was gassed in the third. Jones got Rampage down multiple times, and caused damage everytime he was on top.”
Rashad caught him with a punch, and then double-legged him two minutes later in the first round. Then he took him down again in the third “when he was gassed”. Jones didn’t take him down at all until the third, when he was just as gassed as he was against Rashad, and then took him down again in the fourth.
So they both got two takedowns, but Rashad did it when Rampage was fresh, whereas Jones didn’t get his second takedown till the fourth round, a round that didn’t happen in Rampage/Rashad. I don’t see this vast disparity in wrestling.
“The Rampage that fought Jones was also a lot better than the one who fought Rashad. He wasn’t sucking for air halfway through the third round.”
Riiiiiiiiight.
“Riiiiiiiiight.”
One was a year and a half outside of the cage. One was 6 months after, and had him living in one of the best gyms in the country. Not hard to see which Rampage was better.
“Jones didn’t take him down at all until the third, when he was just as gassed as he was against Rashad”
Ehhhh wrong. It was clear to any intelligent individual Rampage in the third round against Jones was going a lot stronger than what he looked like against Rashad. It isn’t even really close.
“So they both got two takedowns”
No Jones got at least three, one single, and two double’s against the cage. He might of had one more too.
“I don’t see this vast disparity in wrestling.”
Nobody said there was a “vast disparity”. I said Evans doesn’t have the wrestling Jones possesses, because history has shown Jones has a better takedown percentage. Especially against accomplished wrestlers.
“Ehhhh wrong. It was clear to any intelligent individual Rampage in the third round against Jones was going a lot stronger than what he looked like against Rashad. It isn’t even really close.”
No, it really wasn’t. In the third round against Bones, he was breathing hard, and spent long portions of it standing in front of Jones doing literally nothing. In the third round against Rashad, he was breathing hard, but he was coming forward throwing punches quite a bit. If anything he was going a lot stronger against Rashad.
“No Jones got at least three, one single, and two double’s against the cage. He might of had one more too.”
Go watch it again. The only takedowns Jones finished were the single leg in round 3 that had Rampage mounted, and the double in round 4 that led to the choke.
“Nobody said there was a “vast disparity”. I said Evans doesn’t have the wrestling Jones possesses, because history has shown Jones has a better takedown percentage. Especially against accomplished wrestlers.”
“takedown percentages” are meaningless when they’re all against guys the other person hasn’t fought. Against the opponents they have in common, Rashad’s wrestling has performed equally or better than Jones.
I will I have the fight on DVR still, and I will post the exact times Jones tood Rampage down.
“No, it really wasn’t. In the third round against Bones, he was breathing hard, and spent long portions of it standing in front of Jones doing literally nothing. In the third round against Rashad, he was breathing hard, but he was coming forward throwing punches quite a bit. If anything he was going a lot stronger against Rashad.”
Bullshit. Plain and simple. There is simply not one truthful aspect in any of this paragraph. Rampage was barely standing after one barage on the ground against Rashad.
BTW takedown percentages are far from meaningless. They just prove what I said, so you are going against them for conversational purposes.
You were right about the two take downs.
Call me a homer because Rashad Evans was born & raised only about 10 miles from me. And, he just so happened to have attended & won The National Junior College Wrestling 165 lb Title at NCCC, where I’m currently a student.
But, the fact remains that stylistically Evans has the best chance to trouble Jones & holds distinct advantages in some areas that fall under the “intangibles” heading. Which could amount to absolutely nothing… or, be enough to propel Evans to a victory over the young, rather emotional/sensitive Jones. A fighter that has had all of his great success come to him SO easily & SO quickly with nary a moment of adversity along the way ( other than that unfortunate DQ to Hamill of course ).
How will Jones respond to HIS back being put to the mat in front of thousands of people?
What will he do the first time that his chin is reached by a blow powerful enough to actually hurt him?
Does he have the intestinal fortitude to work his way out of a choke or a submission attempt when it’s his neck or his limb being squeezed or torqued painfully in the wrong direction?
All questions that Rashad Evans is quite capable of asking Jon Jones over the course of five rounds come fight night.
Now perhaps, “Bones” will respond with all the right answers & ace yet another big test on his way to super-stardom. But, should he fumble for the correct response even once… “Suga” Rashad could force him into having to repeat a grade.
I agree Jones would wreck Anderson Silva…if give him the clinch position Okami had and Silva would get eating elbows with the quickness..
On the other hand…I think Rashad matches up decently with Jones…only question is if he can pull off the gameplan…which is a combination of the following..avoid being taken down…put Jones against the cage and hit him with strikes there and take him down from there.
“BTW takedown percentages are far from meaningless. They just prove what I said, so you are going against them for conversational purposes.”
Yes, they are meaningless except when they have opponents in common. If Fighter A has a takedown percentage of 100% fighting the Diaz brothers, Marcus Davis, and Dan Hardy, and Fighter B has a takedown percentage of 50% fighting Fitch, Koscheck and GSP, are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that Fighter A is the better wrestler because of his takedown percentage?
Percentages are never as meaningful as actual comparisons vs a common opponent, and as I said, in the opponents they actually have in common, Rashad’s wrestling has performed as well or better than Jones. Now, it may be that Jones is a better wrestler than Rashad, just like it’s possible Fighter A is a better wrestler than Fighter B, but their respective takedown percentages don’t mean shit.
“You were right about the two take downs.”
Go rewatch the Rampage/Rashad fight and you’ll see I’m right about Rampage’s energy levels, too.
“Go rewatch the Rampage/Rashad fight and you’ll see I’m right about Rampage’s energy levels, too.”
See I actually did. Notice I didn’t say anything about the energy levels of rampage against Rashad and Jones being different than what I said prior. In the third against Jones he was coming forward more frequently than Jones even (let alone his fight against Rashad), and had approximately 15-20 seconds total of time where he looked flat on his feet. Even in the 4th round he was bouncing around ready to come forward, until he ate a counter left hook that stopped him in his tracks.
In the third against Rashad, he starts by coming forward, gets the slip/failed take down attempt from Rashad, and rains down some GNP that mostly misses for the next 20 seconds. After about 20 more seconds Rashad gets up, and as soon as he does Rampage is spent. He spends the last 2:30-3:00 minutes looking to counter, but barely throws anything when rashad moves in. Gives up the final take down and spends the last minute on his back (give or take).
It’s clear Rampage’s energy level was much higher in the Jones fight.
“Yes, they are meaningless except when they have opponents in common. If Fighter A has a takedown percentage of 100% fighting the Diaz brothers, Marcus Davis, and Dan Hardy, and Fighter B has a takedown percentage of 50% fighting Fitch, Koscheck and GSP, are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that Fighter A is the better wrestler because of his takedown percentage?”
The problem is not every scenario fits your description. One single situation does not make an entire accounting of information obsolete. There is a reason GSP, Sonnen, and Jones have some of the best take down percentage’s in UFC history.
I wouldn’t put a lot of stock in Rampage’s cardio for the Rashad fight…I mean…he hadn’t fought in forever..whereas he’s had fought more frequently leading up to the Jones fight..so his cardio ‘should’ have been much better.
“… Jon Jones kept ‘strange’ Steven Seagal out of locker room…”
(http://www.jimrome.com/junglehighlights?uri=channels/465575/1494957)
Jon Jones is a real murikan HERO!
Jon Jones cares about the children!